Thursday, January 29, 2015

Fondren Park shooting

Shots were fired at Fondren Park today.  No one was hit or injured.  The following quotes are from the Nextdoor App.  JJ confirmed them with sources at JPD.  Italics are used to distinguish one note from another.


Just witnessed a bunch of teenagers firing shots at one another in Fondren Park. This happened around 4:45. I drove past one of the cars and pulled up to my house. I heard the shots, assumed they were fireworks, and then watched as the kids jumped into their cars. I assumed it was minor vandalism, so I went inside. I went back outside to get my mail and saw a bunch of police cars. Please be on the lookout for an older, tan vehicle (possibly a Buick:I'm not good with cars). I did not see the other vehicle, but my neighbors did. I know one of the teens in the car was female with long dreads and was wearing a bright red tshirt. We're pretty sure no one was hurt, but please be careful.

 Saw the police there hauling them off after piano lesson drop off. Hope they were felons=gone 10 years.

 This is unbelievable. I have stuck with Jackson for a long time but I am about done. Who is in charge of this town? Anyone? Put a cop on every corner until control is maintained. If it takes the National Guard to get it under control, then so be it. This is at a PARK where KIDS play. Are you kidding me? I am SICK of all of the talk about how we are just turning the corner, email the precinct, just be involved in the community, all of that crap. It doesn't mean anything if the thugs can do whatever they want, and they can and do. Why is this not a problem in Madison? Brandon? Clinton? I will tell you why. they don't put up with it. We do. And we are idiots for doing so. I know a lot of people who are about to write this place off, and it won't be soon enough.

 I was at the back of the house shortly before 5 pm when I heard several very loud, very rapid bangs. They were so close together I thought it was fireworks. When I came to the front of the house a few minutes later, many police cars were out by the park (some are still out there now). I could hear talk of a black truck and a fight between some guys and a girl. Perhaps the Commander could fill in the details of what happened?

 We heard about 14 shots, saw a couple of people run away, I called in shots fired seconds after and they said the police were already on the way, and they arrived probably 2 minutes after. We walked to the park where a woman who got involved said kids were arguing and then fighting, she tried to stop it and then they started firing. A shot went into a house next to the park but no one was hurt. The trees in the park are currently littered with bullet casings and clothes and weave. It's crazy looking, clearly a huge fight broke out. The cops are currently dealing with the crime scene and taking witness reports.

  bystander called JPD; they were already on their way, and arrived 2 minutes later.

Kingfish note: Here is one from a long-time personal friend:

 Our xxxx witnessed the shoot out on Dunbar. She is living with a friend there on Dunbar across from the park until xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx. She was in her car just getting home from work. Thought she heard fireworks and turned around to see the running and cars. Told police what she saw. WAPT talked with her but she did not want to be on camera. She carries a weapon at all times and has her enhanced permit but I will feel much better when she is out of there. A poor lady was walking dogs in the park in the middle of all that. I think xxxx was more concerned about comforting her than talking with police.

68 comments:

Anonymous said...

And then?

Anonymous said...

There goes the neighborhood. I promise you if this happened in Brandon, the thugs would be sitting in jail right now and have an appointment with Michael Guest very soon. The problem with Jackson-thugs electing no good thugs to run the city (Kenny Stokes-I rest my case), who appoint no-goods to help them run the city. Mix it up and what do you get? The same crap. Jackson needs a real mayor, real police chief, real DA, real judges, & a real city council. Until then...there goes the neighborhood-one by one.

Anonymous said...

Not to hurt any feelings, but Fondren Park is in the "no go zone". And no elderly white ladies were injured. What's the big deal?

Anonymous said...

Suge Knight named person of interest in Compton fatal hit-run

Knight is currently out on $500,000 bail in connection with an alleged theft of a paparazzo's camera. He is scheduled for a court hearing on Tuesday.

Fixin to be turning hiself in

Anonymous said...

The trees were littered with weave? That can't be good.

Anonymous said...

Uhm 10:28, Fondren Park is NOT in your so called 'no go zone". Fondren Park is home to many community outings including showing movies on a screen in the park! It's very much a community oriented neighborhood. I guess this could be compared to the Ross Barnett Reservoir Old Trace Park fight that broke out among many young Blacks, which led to the PRVWS putting into place fees at every Rez park because of them! I guess only difference is, is that no shots were fired during that fight. But still, many people said the same thing about the area around the Rez ... "OH THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD!" But no ... Nada. Nothing happened, other than the parks becoming more strict. That was it. Fondren Park is in a nice area of town, that sadly today was a victim of some out of control teen youths that chose to come in to a nice part of town, and really screw things up.

Anonymous said...

Uhm 10:28, Fondren Park is NOT in your so called 'no go zone". Fondren Park is home to many community outings including showing movies on a screen in the park! It's very much a community oriented neighborhood. I guess this could be compared to the Ross Barnett Reservoir Old Trace Park fight that broke out among many young Blacks, which led to the PRVWS putting into place fees at every Rez park because of them! I guess only difference is, is that no shots were fired during that fight. But still, many people said the same thing about the area around the Rez ... "OH THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD!" But no ... Nada. Nothing happened, other than the parks becoming more strict. That was it. Fondren Park is in a nice area of town, that sadly today was a victim of some out of control teen youths that chose to come in to a nice part of town, and really screw things up.

Anonymous said...

I grew up in Fondren, and this is the first time I have ever heard of Fondren Park.

Anonymous said...

what is the address of "fondren park" ??

Anonymous said...

Does this look like an appropriate setting for gunfire?

Anonymous said...

3500 block of Northview Dr. Corner of Northview and Dunbar.

Anonymous said...

The Fondren Park is at the corner of Dunbar and Northview on 2.5 acres and was established by a HUD grant in 2011.

I well remember the Reservoir park melee .

Over the past 2 decades I know of at least 6 incidents involving upper middle and upper class teens engaged in gathering to hang out and with alcohol and drugs involved,fights broke out. Teens were also involved in vandalizing upper class neighbors in Jackson and Madison. These incidents got no publicity and no charges were filed. And, yes, guns were involved.

Some of those teens may well be reading this now as they are now responsible adults. I hope they are thanking their parents who intervened and kept them from being arrested.

I'm pleased the police were there " within 2 minutes" and apparently made an arrest. I feel confident this area will get some police attention with regular patrols .

I can't help but to wonder now as I did back then, how teens get access to guns if gun owners are being so responsible and keeping their guns secure?







Anonymous said...

10:52

Most of us witha lick of sense consider fondren park to be a no go zone. And the fight at the Ross Barnett, weren't this Jackson residents? No one ever said there goes the neighborhood, because they weren't our neighbors. They are your neighbors.

Anonymous said...

Things have changed a lot in Fondren in the past 10-15 years, but the west side of State Street = no go zone.

This isn't a real surprising incident. When you live on the edge of the ghetto, ghetto things are going to occur.

When Will It Change said...

Two minutes is actually quite a long time for a police car to arrive. It's not as if Fondren is isolated on the outskirts of town. But, it's really not Fondren's fault. When you try your best to keep a nice, clean kitchen, roaches are going to check out the area anyway, time and again. You have to spray more often. They need to break up that damned police precinct downtown where all the hard leg cops hit on all the soft leg cops and citizens. They need to spread these cops around in multiple trailers all over town, like lifeguards on a beach. Showing up to fill out reports after shootings isn't going to cut the mustard.

Anonymous said...

You're right, 7:24. I shouldn't have left my pistol sitting out on the porch like that. Really? I know where every gun I've ever owned is right now. Bless your heart! I was involved in all sorts of craziness when I was young. It never involved gun play.

Anonymous said...

This begins by not getting control of these children in kindergarten. Discipline is the key. Learning respect for your teachers is also a key. Forget about the homes. Some children have always come from pitiful homes, from broken homes, and lived in poverty. The problem is the schools do not get their attention. If parents complain about their children being diciplined, send the parents to a class. There is no excuse for any child to be allowed to disrupt a class more than once. If they learn behavior and dicipline then they will carry this into their lives and later into employment. Children who behave can learn. No one can learn in an out-of-control classroom. Put a bouncer in each classroom. Put a working camera in each classroom. And on every bus. It is less expensive in the long run than the failed way we are trying now.

Anonymous said...

@7:30, I hate to break it to you, but they're your neighbors too. No amount of brick Walmarts in Madison will keep you safe if crime in Jackson gets worse. The "that's not our problem" attitude is a large part of the issue here.

Anonymous said...

7:24, how does any possession get stolen? You could say the same thing about hubcaps, jewelry, and lawn mowers.

Anonymous said...

7:30 am You are wrong. I lived in a nearby subdivision then.

Not all of those participating were from Jackson. More than a few Canton and Ridgeland residents were involved. And, a few were the teens of Madison residents from more well to do families were on hand.

And, yes, there was concern . More than a few moved folks to Jackson or further out in Madison!

There was also the bars that trailer park that were attracting trouble!

So, " there goes the neighborhood" was certainly discussed!

And, it used to be easier to keep names and events out of the news!

Our gossips and those who panic immediately without regarding long term consequences of bad publicity didn't have cell phones that could do anything but make and receive calls or have laptops and Ipads!

Anonymous said...

No talk about the shooting in Northeast Jackson yesterday? I thought that was a 'nice area' as well.

Anonymous said...

"I can't help but to wonder now as I did back then, how teens get access to guns if gun owners are being so responsible and keeping their guns secure?"

The same way convicted felons and the mentally ill have gotten firearms, dumbass - they steal them or buy them from other criminals.

Anonymous said...

No talk about the shooting in Northeast Jackson yesterday? I thought that was a 'nice area' as well.

If you are talking about the shooting on Old Canton Road yesterday, individual shot himself in the leg......an accident (or so was reported).

Anonymous said...

9:50, a local barber shot himself in the leg, so no no one is talking about it because it was accident.

Anonymous said...

Shooting himself in leg is news to me. I thought the place had been robbed.

Anonymous said...

Fondren Park was actually established as a "greenspace park" back in the early 90's, after a developer proposed building a block of Section-8 apartments on the site. The Fondren-Cherokee Heights Neighborhood Association led the fight against the project and convinced the City and County to jointly purchase the property. The improvements in the picture above came nearly 20 years later.

Anonymous said...

11:45, so was the shooting in the Barnett Bend neighborhood in Flowood news to you too?

Anonymous said...

The Barnett Bend shooting was not news, nor was it a surprise. As more and more Jackson natives move to the surrounding area, you can expect for them to bring their Jackson ways with them.

Anonymous said...

@11:21- I grew up on Fondren too, before it was all cool and hip and trendy, and I was wondering the same thing. that side of north state street wasn't a "nice area" then, nor is it now. sure, there a few pockets here and there with a nice house or two, but generally speaking, there wasn't much reason to cross State Street.

Anonymous said...

10:29 am So guns get stolen ...but they don't get " stolen" from good gun safes, now do they?

They don't get stolen if they are well hidden.

It's not like we have high class, brilliant criminals in Mississippi! You watch too much TV if you think that!

They get stolen left in your locked truck or car ( as if windows can't be broken) or when rummaging around your house during an B&E or when the criminal has the drop on you and you are carrying.

And, of course, once stolen, they are for sale.

Really, are you that clueless?






Anonymous said...

Oh, 10:28 am the criminals are buying them at gun shows and from individuals sales as well.

Some of us would like to make gun theft or sales a bit more difficult as we'd like only those who aren't going to be careless and " too tired" after hunting to stow, their gear, or too stupid to learn gun safety or who aren't mentally ill or who aren't so physically impaired they can't hit the broad side of a barn to have guns!

But, apparently, it's our legislature thinks it's ok for illegal arms dealers to sell guns to would be jihadists who could move to MS since they have made sure that ATF or Homeland Security doesn't have the authority to stop such a transaction in our State without being arrested for taking those guns from someone in our State!





Anonymous said...

1:07 pm

You think there's a " Jackson way" that would cause one to expect shootings should any native of Jackson move to your " surrounding area" ?!?

I'd love to invite you to our next homeowner's meeting so you can explain our " ways" to us natives!

We'll need your name , of course.

We'd love to know who's working for us or any of our children or from who we are purchasing any goods or services when they think so poorly of us! We won't bother you any more!

Alas, I'm sure you don't have the guts to tell us your name!




Anonymous said...

2:42

I'll have to politely pass on coming to your neighborhood meeting. Wouldn't want my vehicle broken into while I was there.

Anonymous said...

7:24 That's an INCREDIBLY racist thing to say, you coward. I consider to have a great deal of sense...at least enough to not be a bigot.

Anonymous said...

I'm on Nextdoor and they are breaking into every truck in the Fondren area looking for guns.

Anonymous said...

Then Ladd gets on there trying to get everyone to look the other way.

Anonymous said...

If you are stupid enough to leave your truck unattended in the ghetto you deserve to have it broken into.

Anonymous said...

Yep, I wish the nra dumbasses would do the rest of us the kindness of taking their guns inside and LOCKING THEM UP. But that would be akin to those invasive background checks & waiting periods and might hurt their feelings (or their rights, whah).

Obviously these particular white trash commenters don't live in the "ghetto" with me, so why, pray-tell, are they trolling this article? Surely sirs, your time could be better spent doing whatever it is rednecks do. You only have two years to find Obama's real birth certificate.

Seriously, leave Fondrenites and our crazy open-mindd ways alone. We can learn the consequences of not being a bunch of insular, racists all nby ourselves. Given the choice between the mean streets of our diverse, progressive ghetto or the safe, sterile, and sickeningly backward suburb you promote, my family will take our chances.

Anonymous said...

7:12

Just as you wish I would remove the gun from my car (which I can't do because the chance of your neighbors trying to murder me is too high) I wish you Obama supporters would stop stealing my shit.

Anonymous said...

7:12 doesn't want people leaving guns in their cars but I bet if she saw someone open carrying in order to not have it stolen she'd shit her granny panties.

Anonymous said...

7:45, sorry to let facts get in the way of your hate-fest, but:

(1) if your gun is in your car, it won't do you much good when someone else steals it unless you are already in your car or right by it;

And

(2) being criminal and being an Obama supporter have very little correlation. Just ask Dedmond and friends or that thug from Rankin Clounty (of course) that called the JPD officer the n word before assaulting him at the st paddys day parade.

I See A Dumbass said...

Dumbass @ 6:50...please tell us how someone is supposed to NOT leave their vehicle unattended on occasion? Do you suggest one park the vehicle and stay within fifty feet of it to surveil? You stupid shit! You're part of the gang who suggests robberies and burglaries are the fault of the people who have property to steal.

MAALOX 4 U said...

2:23; Please read your post, take a deep breath, and then go take a dump. You're obviously constipated.

Anonymous said...

If you are a white person who does not live in Jackson and who is willing to post about the quality of a neighborhood that you have never been to and make assumptions of people you have never met, please do consider ours a "no go zone". We have grown up here.. as in we have matured. We don't still see the world through your pubescent lens and honestly, no matter how much crime happens I would rather live with our diversity of neighbors than be surrounded by your sadly fearful childishness. Do you really waste your time imagining monsters? I wish you could see how silly you look from this side..

Anonymous said...

"Alas, I'm sure you don't have the guts to tell us your name!"

So sayeth "Anonymous" at 2:42 pm, who obviously cannot define "irony" (or any other SAT word, I'd wager).

Anonymous said...

2:13 I have no idea how to steal a gun. Curiously, you seem well-versed in the subject.

Anonymous said...

12:15 am I worked closely with law enforcement at one time . I still have friends in law enforcement.
But, I can also read.
Instead of getting information from a special interest group who gets paid to get me hot and bothered, I have research on the subject of guns and crime.
I think it's useful to know who is telling me the truth and who is trying to get into my pockets!

Anonymous said...

3:09 Nice try. We have security and will have them guard your car.

You don't have the guts to say what you say here about those of us who choose to live in Jackson to our faces.

Indeed, you are intimidated by more than a few of us.

Your insecurity is glaring. You put down others to feel better about yourself.

There is nothing that makes you feel worse and more threatened than an African American who is wealthier and more successful than you are.

You comfort yourself by thinking it's their success that is the cause of your failure. You tell yourself they are given what you failed to earn.

And, you resent successful whites as well and comfort yourself by thinking they must have somehow cheated or been born with advantages to attain the success that escaped you.

It will never occur to you that it's your unpleasant attitude and your unwillingness to do the work involved in learning that holds you back.







Anonymous said...

The self appointed highness for calling out everyone (except herself) as racist has taken over Nextdoor. Apparently if you're posting on Nextdoor about crime but aren't willing to mentor a bunch of black kids whose fathers don't exist and whose mothers suck, you're a racist. I'm as sick of this as I am about the crime.

Anonymous said...

9:49 PM "being criminal and being an Obama supporter have very little correlation. Just ask Dedmond and friends or that thug from Rankin Clounty (of course) that called the JPD officer the n word before assaulting him at the st paddys day parade."

Good job. You've gone back two or three years to find two incidents to support your premise while every week we encounter a dozen or so of your friends who seem to correlate well with the O-message.

Anonymous said...

Yep. By virtue of the fact that I don't hate Obama (or science, or immigrants) I happen to know all criminals and consider them as friends. You, anonymous poster at 11:51 am, are brilliant!

By the way, why are you assuming the criminals in this area are Obama supporters, or that they even care about politics?

Anonymous said...

They don't care about politics. They care about money. I bet they voted for Cochran too.

Anonymous said...

They're all Democrackheads.

Anonymous said...

3:29, when the alternative is Chris McDaniel, who needs money for motivation to vote?

And She Doesn't Own A Gun said...

I suspect at least ten of the prior fifteen posts are typed at the same keyboard.

Anonymous said...

It is a direct violation of the privacy policy of the Nextdoor community to re-post content off of the site.

The Nextdoor community is an incredibly powerful resource for community connectivity and an essential tool for crime awareness and control.

By mining the site for inflammatory content to draw attention to your own site where you sell advertising you are not only in direct violation of the the fullest and clearest intent of the rules, you are compromising the effectiveness and the trust inherent in the community and jeopardizing its effectiveness.

Worse, you are exhibiting the exact behavior that you are trying to put a stop to: the notion that certain people are above the law, that if you are in possession of a tool that threatens others (gun or blog) that you are entitled use that tool to take what you want from others in your community - especially if can be exchanged for cash to pay your bills.

No legitimate news source would cross this line. Your law loving followers, I am sure, would appreciate that you also follow the rules.

Kingfish said...

For the record, I am not a member of Nextdoor.

Anonymous said...

It really doesn't matter if you are a member of Nextdoor. You demonstrated a crass disregard for the rules agreed upon by the community by posting this information.

Now you have profited by drawing attention to this particular neighborhood using nothing but information which, whether or not you stole it, is stolen goods.

You have tarnished the reputation of an entire neighborhood for little more than your own personal gain. If you would like to do that with your own voice, that is your prerogative. But if you choose to quote the residents of a neighborhood who do not intend to be your source then you are in the wrong.

This neighborhood is one that is extremely diverse. Solutions to many of our larger issues in Jackson are being realized by the growth and success of this community. Will some of the high school kids do something stupid? Yes perhaps. It is 100% wrong and shouldn't be ignored. People should be in jail.

But that this article sits on your site as the topic of the day does nothing to benefit the community or the city, it only does harm by working against the progress that the residents here are fighting for.

It would be an honorable move to remove the entire post and admit that it may not be in the best interest of any of us for you to start a thread with "the following quotes are from the Nextdoor App" if you don't intend to understand or acknowledge the rules being disregarded by your source. Give us at least the dignity of our privacy.

Anonymous said...

It is a direct violation of the privacy policy of the Nextdoor community to re-post content off of the site.

BFD. Get over yourself.

Anonymous said...

It would be an honorable move to remove the entire post ...

Move on Sparky.

Anonymous said...

2:16 PM did you complain to Donna Ladd about doing the same?

Anonymous said...

Wow. Someone doesn't like their neighborhood's dirty laundry being aired.

If you want censorship, move to China.

Sparky said...

I should apologize, it is my first time here and I realize I should try to use more of a playground language approach. It's all about getting a good laugh out of the things that happen, right?

We have a tool that is very useful in working with neighbors and police to fight crime. It is not anonymous. Those of us who use it expect that what we say will not be clipped out and published on a website like this one where people come to mock it.

I have no intention of bickering and name calling. I don't care about your proud troll culture.

It is worth pointing out that if you really care about laws and rules and those kinds of adult things, you shouldn't be so careless about flaunting them.

It isn't China.. it is much like the constitution. You know it right? There is a mutually agreed upon commitment by the members to follow the rules so that our organizations can function effectively.

If everyone who thought they were posting anonymously on this site found that their identities were being exposed on another site, they might feel somewhat violated.

Just asking for some maturity.

NextDoor Ned said...

I should apologize, it is my first time here ...

Don't believe you for a second.

It is not anonymous ...

You are here anonymously and, just like FB, there are people on NextDoor using fake names. You are a dupe if you think otherwise.

Those of us who use it expect that what we say will not be clipped out and published on a website ...

As someone else asked you above, did you complain to DonnerKay when she used NextDoor content on Facebook? Simple question, right?

Just asking for some maturity.

LMAO

Anonymous said...

Hey Rube (4:28 and her ilk):

"It really doesn't matter if you are a member of Nextdoor. You demonstrated a crass disregard for the rules agreed upon by the community by posting this information. "

The rules of your community do not apply to those of us who are NOT part of your community. FYI you can smoke all the weed you want in Colorado but if you did it here you would go to jail. Laws and rules have jurisdictional limits. Also FYI, despite your allegations, NOTHING KF posted up top of this thread mentioned anyone by name, and all his quotes came from JPD. If you have a beef with his source take it up with the chief or the mayor.

Also, "It isn't China.. it is much like the constitution. You know it right? " - ooohhhh - WITHERING sarcasm, if you're in the 4th grade. Again FYI, China is a separate country, and doesn't have to abide by our constitution, nor do we have to abide by their laws.

Since you opened the playground analogy, may I suggest you just take your ball and go home? We were doing just fine before you came and I suspect will continue to do so once the grownups can resume talking amongst themselves. Most of us on this blog can afford to live in Fondren (or Eastover, or Belhaven, etc) but choose to live elsewhere for many reasons, the most important of which is the safety of our children. If you feel compelled to reply please start by posting a link reporting the last time someone opened fire with multiple shots in Liberty Park.

Getchur Oysters Here said...

"We are extremely diverse." What the hell does that mean?

But, let me join those who recognize the absurdity of Opey's Treehouse Club suggesting all of Mayberry has to follow their rules.

Anonymous said...

WOW! That was informative. I don't think that I live within several miles of most of those people who posted above but I have certainly been educated. That said, I have often read this blog and find it educational, enjoyable and often entertaining.

Although I live in a different area, we too have our problems as well as many people, areas and places of interest in which we take pride.

Conversation and dialogue is good. I see no reason to remove the entire post. In fact many of us rely on this blog to stay informed on many events that the local media outlets never mention.

Anonymous said...


The beef was over a girl as the couple was arguing earlier in the same location. The ghetto code of honor dictated pistols and seconds. They were truants. I heard that today...



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Trollfest '07

Jackson Jambalaya is the home of Trollfest '07. Catch this great event which promises to leave NE Jackson & Fondren in flames. Sonjay Poontang and his band headline the night with a special steel cage, no time limit "loser must leave town" bout between Alan Lange and "Big Cat"Donna Ladd following afterwards. Kamikaze will perform his new song F*** Bush, he's still a _____. Did I mention there was no referee? Dr. Heddy Matthias and Lori Gregory will face off in the undercard dueling with dangling participles and other um, devices. Robbie Bell will perform Her two latest songs: My Best Friends are in the Media and Mama's, Don't Let Your Babies Grow up to be George Bell. Sid Salter of The Clarion-Ledger will host "Pin the Tail on the Trial Lawyer", sponsored by State Farm.

There will be a hugging booth where in exchange for your young son, Frank Melton will give you a loooong hug. Trollfest will have a dunking booth where Muhammed the terrorist will curse you to Allah as you try to hit a target that will drop him into a vat of pig grease. However, in the true spirit of Separate But Equal, Don Imus and someone from NE Jackson will also sit in the dunking booth for an equal amount of time. Tom Head will give a reading for two hours on why he can't figure out who the hell he is. Cliff Cargill will give lessons with his .80 caliber desert eagle, using Frank Melton photos as targets. Tackleberry will be on hand for an autograph session. KIM Waaaaaade will be passing out free titles and deeds to crackhouses formerly owned by The Wood Street Players.

If you get tired come relax at the Fox News Tent. To gain admittance to the VIP section, bring either your Republican Party ID card or a Rebel Flag. Bringing both will entitle you to free drinks.Get your tickets now. Since this is an event for trolls, no ID is required, just bring the hate. Bring the family, Trollfest '07 is for EVERYONE!!!

This is definitely a Beaver production.

Note: Security provided by INS
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